How Do You Science | Meet a Biologist—Snakes & Bears

Welcome back, young scientists. I’m Dr. Universe.  If you’re anything like me, you’ve got lots of big questions about our world.
  
What's a postdoctoral fellow? How do rattlesnakes rattle? What's it like searching for snakes in the field or taking blood samples from a grizzly bear?
 
In this episode, we meet Blair Perry, a postdoctoral fellow at Washington State University. He uses the same methods to study the genes of snakes and bears! 

As always, submit burning questions at askdruniverse.wsu.edu. Who knows where your questions will take us next.

Transcript

Dr. Universe
Hi, friends. I'm Dr. Universe. If you're anything like me, you've got lots of big questions about our world. 

I first met Blair Perry when I was answering a question about how venomous animals stay safe from their own venom. He's a biologist and a postdoctoral fellow at Washington State University. He studies snakes and venom and now bears, I can't wait for you to hear about his work. Let's get started.

I'm really excited to talk to you. 

Dr. Perry
Good. I'm excited, too.

Dr. Universe
So, I've talked to you about snakes, and my understanding is that you studied snakes as a graduate student. Is that right?

Dr. Perry
Yeah, that's correct. And still today on the side.

Dr. Universe
What did you study about snakes in grad school?

Dr. Perry
I studied quite a few different things. Our lab was primarily a genomics lab. So, we use studies of the genome to understand aspects of biology—like evolution but also to identify genes that are involved in interesting adaptations and things like that. My work was split in between two big projects. 

One was studying the regulation and evolution of snake venom, specifically in rattlesnakes. So, trying to understand what controls venom at the genomic level, what genes are involved, how those genes are controlled, and how all of that got there, why snakes have evolved this ability to produce venom where other organisms haven't. 

On the other side of things, I worked on a project where we were studying mainly Burmese pythons, which have this really unique ability to, in some cases, go up to a year between meals because they simply will not be able to find prey. And during that time, they essentially turn off their digestive system and really shrivel up and shrink their organs—so like their intestine and other digestive organs—to conserve energy. Then, maybe a year later, when they finally get to eat again, they have to turn all that back on, and that actually involves regrowing some of this tissue. And within just about 24 hours going from this shriveled up, inactive digestive system to a fully functional one. So, trying to understand how they do that, what genes are involved in that process. 

It's an interesting adaptation in itself. But there's also implications for understanding how can these snakes regenerate some of these tissues like intestinal tissue whereas humans can't really do that. If we figure out how snakes are doing it, can we use that to unlock some new treatments for human disease or injury and things like that?

Dr. Universe
I had no idea that that was the thing. That is so cool. So, when you did field work as a graduate student was that scary?

Dr. Perry
Not particularly. I think a lot of people picture Steve Irwin and these sensational TV shows where you're running after something and grabbing it with your bare hands, and it's trying to bite you and all this sort of thing. That's all really played up on TV for the drama and entertainment value. 

Typically, when you're looking for rattlesnakes—First, they're very hard to find. So, 90% of your time at least is spent just wandering around not finding anything. In most cases, when you find one, it's pretty much just coiled up sitting somewhere and doesn't really do anything until you walk up to it. Sometimes they'll start to move away, sometimes they will rattle, but they rely mostly on just hoping you don't see them. So, they typically just kind of sit there. 

Then we use things like snake hooks and these long, pinchy tongs to interact with them so that we're never actually touching them with our bare hands. We can use that to put them in essentially pillowcases so we can keep them secure and safe until we're able to take a blood sample or something like that. We also will wear heavy boots and gaiters, which are these protective shields like big shin pads around your legs so that if they were to get close to you, which they rarely do, or if you didn't see one and walked by it, if it did try to strike at you, you would be protected. But in the years that I did it, I don't think I ever encountered a situation where I was close to being bit or really in danger. So, it's a thing where it's very controlled and careful. In terms of entertainment value, it's a little more mundane than it seems like it would be based on what you see on TV. 

Dr. Universe
Was it exciting to go and look for them?

Dr. Perry
Absolutely. So, typically, the work that we did involved species that are living in desert scrub areas. A lot of people think of those as boring or dry, unpleasant areas. But when you’re really walking through them and experiencing the landscape and being off the road—so you're in places people don't normally see—you’re in a beautiful environment. Finding these animals in their environment, seeing them doing natural behaviors or seeing how they camouflage and blend in with their surroundings is always really special. 

 I think a lot of people, for various reasons, have negative thoughts about them. But, if you really take the time to see them and appreciate them, they're extremely beautiful. They're very majestic in their own ways. 

So, walking around for hours on end, even finding a single snake is always really exciting. I still remember specific places where I found specific animals because the animal or the scenery or both were just really beautiful.

Dr. Universe
Do you have a favorite kind of snake?

Dr. Perry
Oh, that's a good question. I will collectively, say probably the rattlesnakes of the Western United States, which encompasses multiple different lineages and species and subspecies and things like that. 

It's really hard to pick a single one. They all have their own unique looks but also environments where they live. Some of them, you could almost say have different personalities and that they have different behaviors when you are interacting with them or looking for them and things like that. So, there's a lot of really interesting diversity over there amongst that whole group of animals. And again, I think they're just extremely beautiful and really fun to find and appreciate out in the wild.

Dr. Universe
This is very random, but just out of curiosity, what makes the rattling sound?

Dr. Perry
Yeah, so the actual rattle on their tail is—you can almost think of it as somewhat overlapping layers of dry skin. So, if you were to cut it down the center—and there are videos and images of this online—you see these little interlocking layers of dried skin that essentially sticks on there when they shed. So, when they vibrate their tail muscles—and they have these muscles in their tail that are able to vibrate at a very, very, very fast rate, like I think among the fastest twitching muscles that we know of—it moves those dry skin layers together and makes that loud rattling sound. 

Dr. Universe
Wow, that's so cool.  

Dr. Perry
Yeah. And it's not perfectly linked to age. So, you can't quite count them like rings on a tree, but oftentimes, older snakes will have longer rattles. They can break off, so it's not a perfect situation. 

But a particularly cute thing is if you find a baby that has just been born very recently and hasn't shed yet, they essentially just have this tiny little—we call it a button on the end. It's this little nub that doesn't make any sound if they shake it because there aren't layers built up yet. And it's just this kind of cute little looks almost like little toenail on their tail.

Dr. Universe
Oh my gosh, that's really cute. So, you finished graduate school, and then you became a postdoctoral fellow? Can you tell me what that means?

Dr. Perry
Yeah, so typically, a postdoctoral fellow or researcher associate—there's a lot of different names for it—is the stage that you go through in between getting your PhD and starting a job as a professor at a university, doing research and teaching, or, in some cases, going to like an industry or governmental job. 

It's essentially bridging this gap between graduate school. You're getting the skills to do the research and know the systems that you're studying very well. And what you don't necessarily learn during that time is all the other things that it takes to be a professor.  

So, for example, I'm interested in eventually getting a faculty position doing research and teaching and things like that. So, while I am doing research currently and starting to kind of develop some of my own research projects that I want to continue in my own lab, I'm also taking a lot of time to try to understand how to write grants and get money. I'm trying to improve my writing skills so that I can better share my research both with other scientists and also with the general public. I'm working on mentoring students and getting a sense for how to be a leader in a lab situation, how to help my eventual grad students learn what they need to be successful and things like that. 

I do want to say that the nature of a postdoc can be very different depending on the environment and the subject you are doing. So, as an evolutionary and genomic biologist, this is how it works for me. But there are postdocs that work in medical research settings where it's perhaps a bit different. Maybe there's a specific project that they're being brought in to complete. If you go into other fields of science, I would guess that things are broadly similar. But, if you're in physics versus chemistry versus anthropology or psychology, things like that, the exact day to day of your postdoc might be a little different than what I've done so far.

Dr. Universe
So what are you studying now as a postdoc?

Dr. Perry
Currently, I am studying hibernation in bears, which is a little different than snakes but has some connections. So, when I was finishing up my PhD in graduate school, I was interested in understanding how snake venom evolved and what parts of the genome control how that works. In my current postdoc position, I'm taking that work and applying it to a new system, which is hibernation in bears. 

This provides an opportunity to take it to a different level, essentially. So, there are specific venom genes in the genome that produce venom. So, we can find those genes and try to understand how they're controlled. There's still a lot to do there, but that's kind of a defined thing. In terms of hibernation, there are potentially two to three to four to even more thousand genes involved. You're changing an activity, essentially, between the hibernation season and the summer when they're active. But it depends on the different tissue that you look in—if you're looking at the liver versus the heart versus kidney, fat tissue, things like that. So, it's a much larger scale. 

So, trying to apply different methods to both understand the genes that are involved in hibernation, how those genes are controlled, and how these really large networks of different genes are controlled together to make hibernation work. And how all of that evolved. So, approaching it from a different direction—but similar questions that I'm interested in.

Dr. Universe
That's so many genes. Do you get to do field work now?

Dr. Perry
Not currently. Most of the work that I am doing, either the data has already been generated, and therefore I'm mostly working on the computer, or for the data that I need to generate, I work with the Bear Center at Washington State University. 

Which is a really unique facility that has 11 bears that we can study up close. They're trained to allow us to take blood samples. They're tiny little pinprick samples. And we get to study these bears throughout the year when they're active, when they're feeding in preparation for hibernation, when they're hibernating, and so on. So, it's a really one-of-a-kind facility and opportunity to be able to collect samples throughout the year and see how these genes are changing and study the questions that I'm interested in.

Dr. Universe
Is it exciting to interact with the bears? 

Dr. Perry
It is, of course. Yes, very incredible, impressive animals. It's hard to really appreciate them until you see them up close. And it's not something that many people get to do. So, I feel very fortunate for having that experience already and getting to work with them. 

Similar to my fieldwork with snakes, when it comes down to working with them, it's a lot more controlled and safe and perhaps boring than most people would expect. The vet facilities at Washington State come and help out. The bears can be gently anesthetized, so they're very sleepy and just sleeping through the whole procedure. So, we can take our little blood draw samples, and they don't really even know that anything happens. So, we still get to interact up close with them. But we are very, very careful to minimize and really eliminate any danger or risk for us or the animals in process.

Dr. Universe
Do you have a specific bear that you like the best?

Dr. Perry
Oh, that's very hard to pick. I've only been interacting with them for a relatively short period of time compared to a lot of people there that have been there since the beginning or multiple years. But, really quicklyyou do pick up on different personalities, different ones that behave differently, interact with other animals differently. Some of them are really excited to cooperate, if they get a treat in return. Some of them are a little more stubborn. I really appreciate all of them in their own little unique ways, I think. 

Dr. Universe
What kinds of treats do they get? 

Dr. Perry
They really like honey, which is something you see in Winnie the Pooh, and that turns out to be true. So, you have diluted honey water in squirt bottles, and for example, they're trained to come over to a part of the facility where they can put a leg through a small opening that we can have access to the leg to take a blood sample or to give the medicine or perform checkups. They know that if they put their leg there, then they get as much honey as they can eat while we're taking a tiny little blood sample or something like that. So, they're more than happy to cooperate, in most cases, because they get a bunch of treats. They also like apples and things like that. So, they get a varied diet, but the honey water tends to be the favorite treat from what I've seen.

Dr. Universe
That's so cute. Did you always know you wanted to be a scientist?

Dr. Perry
That's a great question. I think the answer is kind of yes and no. I think that I always had the interest and the desire to study nature and animals specifically. So, yes, on that side, but no in the sense that I didn't really know that it was an option for a while. 

When I was in high school, I was really interested in biology, but I thought if you're interested in biology, you go into medical school or you go to veterinary school. I didn't want to go to medical school. That just didn't sound appealing to me. I considered veterinary school and was actually initially a pre-vet student at Ohio State. 

Through taking classes and having graduate students teaching labs or teaching some of our courses and learning about what they were doing and learning about their research and that you could be a scientist—it wasn't just reserved for Steve Irwin and the people on TV—that opened up a whole new direction. 

It was pretty soon after that I realized that was what I wanted to pursue. I've also come to find that I really enjoy teaching, both in terms of classes, but also working with specific students, whether it's other graduate students or undergraduate students on a one-to-one basis. Since that's more or less half of the job if you become a professor in most cases--research being the other half--it just ended up seeming like the perfect fit for me. 

So, I do think that a big thing is just making sure that people realize that it's an option and that it's something you can pursue. I've personally enjoyed it a lot, and I'm happy to keep doing it for the rest of my life hopefully.

Dr. Universe
What's the best part of your work?

Dr. Perry
I think the best part is really just the pursuit of knowledge, which sounds silly, but it's just so fun. Anytime you learn something, you also realize, "Well, what about this or this or this." So, there's always this search for discovery. And just to understand more about these things that interest you in the first place—that is really satisfying and really rewarding. 

But it's not always an easy process. Sometimes it takes months to years of messing with data or going to find more samples or reanalyzing data and things like this. But the payoff of discovering something new or understanding something better than we have before is really satisfying. I think that's the main thing that keeps me going.

Dr. Universe
Do you have any advice for a kid who thinks that they might want to have a job like yours?

Dr. Perry
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just think hard about what really interests you and try to get experience doing a lot of things. If you really think that you like nature and biology, try to volunteer at a zoo or a wildlife facility or something like that. Seek out experiences where you get to see more than just what you're seeing in the classroom, if possible. Just so that you can get as much experience and knowledge as you can. Really, just try to be open to different opportunities and experiences and try to see what feels best to you. 

Like I said, I thought I was going to be a vet. I thought that was what I wanted. It took me starting down that path and realizing that maybe that wasn't what I really liked and realizing there was this other direction that really spoke to me more. So, being open to the fact that you might go down one direction and realize that maybe that's not the best fit and you need to change, and that's totally fine. It's something that I think most people come into contact with at some point. So if you don't know exactly what you want to do just yet, that's also totally fine. You've got plenty of time to figure that out.

Dr. Universe
Well, thank you for talking to me. I have loved every conversation about snakes. And I hope we get to have one about bears.

Dr. Perry
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe if some people hear this, they'll start sending in some questions about Bears. 

Dr. Universe
That would be awesome.

That's all for this episode, friends. Big thanks to Blair Perry for giving us a window into animal science. 

As always, if you've got a question tickling your brain, you can submit it at https://askdruniverse.wsu.edu/. That's a s k d r u n i v e r s e dot w s u dot e d u. 

Who knows where your questions will take us next.